The Health Care "Debate"

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

I was referring to the die-hard left that are still kissing his rear end and think he is God.

As for being a scapegoat that's the way it goes with Presidents in the US: If things go well he is praised. If not, it's all his fault.

That doesn't sound like they qualify as 'the public' to me I gotsta say. The die-hard conservatives and/or Republicans/right seem to be doing all the chanting and pitchfork waving. That's an extremely nasty, and creepy article you posted on the Chumming the Waters with Rollhead thread about Fox News.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

I believe that's why there are dwindling numbers around here these days: If you don't go along with the group-think then you are an outcast.

That's the main reason why I have only popped in at the site once in a great while since Jazz Corner started.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

I believe that's why there are dwindling numbers around here these days: If you don't go along with the group-think then you are an outcast.

That's the main reason why I have only popped in at the site once in a great while since Jazz Corner started.

I appreciate the opportunity for a free and frank exchange of ideas, without fear of being ganged up on, but from what I've seen it's more tag teaming when it does occur - I got assaulted by the aebly brothers, it was an interesting experience, not at all distressing, but it was bemusing and slightly disorienting, 'cos it came out of nowhere.
Things are rather tamer here at the minute it would seem.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

I- I got assaulted by the aebly brothers, it was an interesting experience, not at all distressing, but it was bemusing and slightly disorienting, 'cos it came out of nowhere.

Yes, they specialize in sucker punching people. As soon as you respond, their fellow crips/bloods jump out of the shadows and insult you for making the place "uncivil."

Much nicer place around here without those two.

[rollhead]

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by rollhead

Yes, they specialize in sucker punching people. As soon as you respond, their fellow crips/bloods jump out of the shadows and insult you for making the place "uncivil."

Much nicer place around here without those two.

I've gotten tag-teamed by posting pairs here but never once by them.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by rollhead

Yes, they specialize in sucker punching people. As soon as you respond, their fellow crips/bloods jump out of the shadows and insult you for making the place "uncivil."

Much nicer place around here without those two.

Amen to that! And I appreciate your far greater experience in the matter.

Gordon, are you saying there are/were other tag teams lurking around? And I gotsta say you were fortunate to not have crossed the aeblys cos I get the feeling they were grudge holders...

[bluenoter]

No one said freedom was pretty

By Dana Milbank
Friday, November 6, 2009

The call to arms went out last week.

Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-Minn.), who made her name suggesting that Barack Obama and other Democrats have "anti-American" views, appeared on Fox News on Friday night and urged Americans to come to Washington to protest: "We need to pay a house call on Nancy Pelosi and tell her what she can do with the Pelosi health-care plan."

They came as directed, about 5,000 tea-party regulars and antiabortion activists, to the West Lawn of the Capitol on Thursday for what Bachmann called a "Super Bowl of Freedom," sponsored by Republican members of Congress. And what a game it was.

Many of the demonstrators chanted "Weasel Queen," their pet name for the speaker of the House. Others wore masks of Pelosi (D-Calif.) and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.); they were covered in fake blood and carrying dolls representing aborted fetuses, as the Grim Reaper led them in chains to hell.

In the front of the protest, a sign showed President Obama in white coat, his face painted to look like the Joker. The sign, visible to the lawmakers as they looked into the cameras, carried a plea to "Stop Obamunism." A few steps farther was the guy holding a sign announcing "Obama takes his orders from the Rothchilds" [sic], accusing Obama of being part of a Jewish plot to introduce the antichrist.

But the best of Bachmann's recruits were a few rows into the crowd, holding aloft a pair of 5-by-8-foot banners proclaiming "National Socialist Healthcare, Dachau, Germany, 1945." Both banners showed close-up photographs of Holocaust victims, many of them children.

Immediately in front of this colorful scenery, various House Republicans signed autographs and shook hands with the demonstrators. Rep. Virginia Foxx (N.C.), who recently said the health-care bill is more dangerous than terrorists, gave out stickers saying "Govt Run Healthcare Makes Me Sick!"

"Who knew a casual comment on TV could generate this?" Rep. Jeb Hensarling (Tex.) exulted as he stood in front of the Dachau banner.

Now, objecting to the health-care bill is one thing. But doesn't it send the wrong message for House Republicans to hold an event on the Capitol grounds full of hateful and gruesome words and images?

"I'm not worried about the message of freedom," Hensarling replied, before joining his colleagues on the podium to the beat of the Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again."

Technically, Thursday's GOP-sponsored rally at the Capitol was a "press conference" (a Capitol Police spokeswoman explained that the lawmakers didn't have a permit for a demonstration). The speakers took no questions at this news conference, instead calling, at least a dozen times, for the Pelosi bill's death.

"Remember some of the other battles: Lexington and Concord, Hamburger Hill, Pork Chop Hill?" said Rep. Steve King (R-Iowa). "We're not going to leave this hill until we kill this bill!"

"Who will kill this bill?" asked Rep. Paul Broun (R-Ga.). "You will!"

"Let's kill this bill," proposed Rep. Jean Schmidt (R-Ohio).

"This bill will be killed," agreed Rep. Bill Cassidy (R-La.).

But, as with a similar rally by Democrats a week before, unpredictable things tend to happen in the wide-open spaces of the Capitol's West Front. Minutes into the rally, a breeze toppled the American flag from the stage.

More ominously, a man standing just beyond the TV cameras apparently suffered a heart attack 20 minutes after event began. Medical personnel from the Capitol physician's office -- an entity that could, quite accurately, be labeled government-run health care -- rushed over, attaching electrodes to his chest and giving him oxygen and an IV drip.

This turned into an unwanted visual for the speakers, as a D.C. ambulance and firetruck, lights flashing, pulled in just behind the lawmakers. A path was made through the media section, and the patient, attended to by about 10 government medical personnel, was being wheeled away on a stretcher just as House Minority Leader John Boehner (R-Ohio) stepped to the microphone. "Join us in defeating Pelosi care!" he exhorted. A few members stole a glance at the stretcher. Boehner may have been distracted as well. He told the crowd he would read from the Constitution, then read the "we hold these truths" bit from the Declaration of Independence.

As you'd expect at a political protest, the messages on signs and buttons were provocative: "Waterboard Congress," "A Commie Is in the House."

But this protest was unusual because it was an official House GOP event, and because some of the remarks on the stage were as outrageous as those in the crowd. The actor Jon Voight, standing with the lawmakers, said of Obama: "Could it be he has had 20 years of subconscious programming by Reverend Wright to damn America?"

Even the Rev. Stephen Broden, at the microphone to deliver the closing prayer, fumed about "death panels inside this death care," adding: "It is tyranny! It is socialism!"

The lawmakers set the tone early, when Rep. Todd Akin (R-Mo.) asked for the Pledge of Allegiance because "it drives the liberals crazy" to hear the "under God" part (his bravado was premature, for he left out the word "indivisible"). The tone continued to the end, when Rep. John Carter (R-Tex.) beckoned to the House office buildings and shouted, "Go get 'em!" Some took him literally: Ten people were arrested at a sit-in at Pelosi's office in the Cannon Building, where they were crumpling up the health-care bill one page at a time.

By the time it was over, medics had administered government-run health care to at least five people in the crowd who were stricken as they denounced government-run health care. But Bachmann overlooked this irony as she said farewell to her recruits.

"You," she said, "are the most beautiful sight any of us freedom fighters have seen for a long time."
  

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

WaPo's Milbank Decries 'Hateful and Gruesome' Hill Protest, Thrown by 'Party of No Taste'
By Tim Graham

At the Capitol Hill rally against nationalized health care on Thursday, talk-radio host and author Mark Levin talked to the press: "These are citizen patriots out here, and I’m tired of them being smeared." Some didn’t get the message. In Friday’s Washington Post, columnist Dana Milbank played the usual game of quoting the wackiest signs and smearing thousands of people with them.

His column’s title was "No one said freedom was pretty." [1] On the homepage of the Post website, it said: "Milbank: Michele Bachmann's anti-health reform event brings out the party of no taste." Here’s a sample of Milbank’s account:

In the front of the protest, a sign showed President Obama in white coat, his face painted to look like the Joker. The sign, visible to the lawmakers as they looked into the cameras, carried a plea to "Stop Obamunism." A few steps farther was the guy holding a sign announcing "Obama takes his orders from the Rothchilds" [sic], accusing Obama of being part of a Jewish plot to introduce the antichrist.

But the best of Bachmann's recruits were a few rows into the crowd, holding aloft a pair of 5-by-8-foot banners proclaiming "National Socialist Healthcare, Dachau, Germany, 1945." Both banners showed close-up photographs of Holocaust victims, many of them children....

"Who knew a casual comment on TV could generate this?" Rep. Jeb Hensarling (Tex.) exulted as he stood in front of the Dachau banner.

Now, objecting to the health-care bill is one thing. But doesn't it send the wrong message for House Republicans to hold an event on the Capitol grounds full of hateful and gruesome words and images?

Milbank singled out anti-abortion protests with their bloody-fetus references. Question to Milbank: if abortion images are gruesome, aren’t pro-abortion policies the accomplishment of those gruesome images?

A week ago, Democrats had a tiny health-care rally on the Hill. Milbank also chronicled that one [2] wearing his typical jester’s hat. But once again, he was upset at the tastelessness of anti-abortion protesters:

But for all the precautions, policy pep rallies have a way of taking unwanted turns, and Thursday's did so almost immediately after Pelosi stepped to the microphone. "Nancy Pelosi, you'll burn in hell for this," said a voice, amplified by a bullhorn, from about 50 yards away.

"Thank you, insurance companies of America," Pelosi replied to the man. Actually, they were abortion protesters, and they were loud.

"In this legislation, we will immediately begin to close the doughnut hole," the speaker proclaimed.

"We won't pay for murder!" a heckler heckled.

"Prevention and wellness are an important part of this legislation," the speaker declared.

"We won't pay for murder!" the heckler repeated. Finally, police were able to silence the activists, who held a gruesome poster showing an aborted fetus and signs demanding "Kill the bill."

Milbank pointed out that this rally had almost no attendance, aside from a smattering of Hill staffers. But at this one, Milbank’s incessant snarkiness broke, and he was moved:

Still, there were moving moments, as when Rep. Mary Jo Kilroy (Ohio) spoke of her battle with multiple sclerosis. And Rep. John Dingell (Mich.), who succeeded his father in Congress in 1955, recalled the birth of Medicare in 1965.

"I did have the privilege of sitting in the chair when we passed Medicare," he said, and "I used this here gavel to preside over the House." The audience gave a hearty cheer this time when he held up the instrument. "And I'm going to lend it to whoever it is who gets to preside over this legislation, because a good piece of wood doesn't wear out with one great event."

It was a powerful image.

The only thing that ruined the liberal-Democrat nostalgia for him was U2 background music.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Source URL:
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/tim-gra...-party-no-tast

[jesus marion joseph]

When you have to rely on Jon Voight to carry your message, you're probably screwed.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

Amen to that! And I appreciate your far greater experience in the matter.

Gordon, are you saying there are/were other tag teams lurking around? And I gotsta say you were fortunate to not have crossed the aeblys cos I get the feeling they were grudge holders...

If you showed sufficent fealty to aebly senior, you possibly could be forgiven a transgression. But it took a LOT of genuflecting. Unfortunately, I never developed the necessary knee callouses to do so..

If you are concerned, I believe JC has a fitting room for sackcloth:



When baksheesh learned all that had been done, baksheesh rent his clothes and put on sackcloth and ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, wailing with a loud and bitter cry

[Al in NYC]

Nice to have Woz back to represent the true voice of the American right. A relief from the namby-pamby "Don't tie me down to any political reality, I just believe in free markets" Gordonisms

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

Nice to have Woz back to represent the true voice of the American right. A relief from the namby-pamby "Don't tie me down to any political reality, I just believe in free markets" Gordonisms

Well, we always had Monte. But the problem with him was that you never got that he believed in what the Right was saying, he was just enjoying his belly laughs at the bodies left in the wake of Republican policies.

He practically busts a gut thinking of Abu Ghraib (frat boy hijinks!) and Katrina (why all those po' folks are better off because of the flood! just like Ma Bush said!).

[tippy]

Health care reform for an unhealthy America

By Nicholas D. Kristof
The New York Times

Salt Lake Tribune
Updated:11/05/2009 03:54:34 PM MST


The moment of truth for health care is at hand, and the distortion that perhaps gets the most traction is this:

We have the greatest health care system in the world. Sure, it has flaws, but it saves lives in ways that other countries can only dream of. Abroad, people sit on waiting lists for months, so why should we squander billions of dollars to mess with a system that is the envy of the world? As Sen. Richard Shelby of Alabama puts it, President Barack Obama's plans amount to "the first step in destroying the best health care system the world has ever known."

That self-aggrandizing delusion may be the single greatest myth in the health care debate. In fact, America's health care system is worse than Slov -- er, oops, more on that later.

The U.S. ranks 31st in life expectancy (tied with Kuwait and Chile), according to the latest World Health Organization figures. We rank 37th in infant mortality (partly because of many premature births) and 34th in maternal mortality. A child in the U.S. is 2.5 times as likely to die by age 5 as in Singapore or Sweden, and a U.S. woman is 11 times as likely to die in childbirth as a woman in Ireland.

Canadians live longer than Americans do after kidney transplants and after dialysis, and that may be typical of cross-border differences. One review examined 10 studies of how the American and Canadian systems dealt with various medical issues. The United States did better in two, Canada did better in five and in three they were similar or it was difficult to determine.

Yet another study, cited in a recent report by the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation and the Urban Institute, looked at how well 19 developed countries succeeded in avoiding "preventable deaths," like those where a disease could be cured or forestalled. What Shelby called "the best health care system" ranked last.

The figures are even worse for members of minority groups. An African-American in New Orleans has a shorter life expectancy than the average person in Vietnam or Honduras.

I regularly receive heartbreaking e-mail messages from readers simultaneously combating the predations of disease and insurers. One correspondent, Linda, told me how she had been diagnosed earlier this year with abdominal and bladder cancer -- leading to battles with her insurance company.

"I will never forget standing outside the chemo treatment room knowing that the medication needed to save my life was only a few feet away, but that because I had private insurance it wasn't available to me," Linda wrote. "I read a comment from someone saying that they didn't want a faceless government bureaucrat deciding if they would or would not get treatment. Well, a faceless bureaucrat from my private insurance made the decision that I wouldn't get treatment and that I wasn't worth saving."

It's true that Americans have shorter waits to see medical specialists than in most countries, although waits in Germany are shorter than in the United States. But citizens of other countries get longer hospital stays and more medication than Americans do because our insurance companies evict people from hospitals as soon as they can stagger out of bed. Likewise, Americans take 10 percent fewer drugs than citizens in other countries -- but pay 118 percent more per pill they do take, McKinsey said.

Opponents of reform assert that the wretched statistics in the United States are simply a consequence of unhealthy lifestyles and a diverse population with pockets of poverty. It's true that America suffers more from obesity than other countries. But McKinsey found that overall, the disease burden in Europe is higher than in the United States, probably because Americans smoke less and because the American population is younger.

Moreover, there is one American health statistic that is strikingly above average: life expectancy for Americans who have already reached the age of 65. At that point, they can expect to live longer than the average in industrialized countries. That's because Americans above age 65 actually have universal health care coverage: Medicare. Suddenly, a diverse population with pockets of poverty is no longer such a drawback.

That brings me to an apology. In several columns, I've noted indignantly that we have worse health statistics than Slovenia. For example, I noted that an American child is twice as likely to die in its first year as a Slovenian child. The tone -- worse than Slovenia! -- gravely offended Slovenians. They resent having their fine universal health coverage compared with the notoriously dysfunctional American system.

As far as I can tell, every Slovenian has written to me. Twice. So, to all you Slovenians, I apologize profusely for the invidious comparison of our health systems. Yet I still don't see anything wrong with us Americans aspiring for health care every bit as good as yours.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Rollie already posted that one Tippy. See #613

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

Rollie already posted that one Tippy. See #613

She posted that for the benefit of the 95 percent who have Rollie on ignore.

[Uli]

Originally Posted by rollhead

She posted that for the benefit of the 95 percent who have Rollie on ignore.

If only other people would be so considerate and not quote the woozie so much.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by rollhead

If you showed sufficent fealty to aebly senior, you possibly could be forgiven a transgression. But it took a LOT of genuflecting. Unfortunately, I never developed the necessary knee callouses to do so..

If you are concerned, I believe JC has a fitting room for sackcloth:



When baksheesh learned all that had been done, baksheesh rent his clothes and put on sackcloth and ashes, and went out into the midst of the city, wailing with a loud and bitter cry

Snrf! Snrf! The 'sheesh likes!

[tippy]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

Rollie already posted that one Tippy. See #613

That thunder stealing turd.



I’d looked to see if anybody had posted but didn’t take note of Rollie’s post because it wasn’t shaped right. Oh well…I hope you enjoyed reading it twice, Wozzie when-the-going-gets-tough Nelson.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

Nice to have Woz back to represent the true voice of the American right. A relief from the namby-pamby "Don't tie me down to any political reality, I just believe in free markets" Gordonisms

Was that necessary? On the one hand, you wrote an interesting post discussing the old and new popular definitions of conservatism (NY23 discussion) and on the other hand you conflate the two when it serves your purpose.

Your statement about me is inaccurate, too but you evidently enjoy making a caricature of my views.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by rollhead

Well, we always had Monte. But the problem with him was that you never got that he believed in what the Right was saying, he was just enjoying his belly laughs at the bodies left in the wake of Republican policies.

He practically busts a gut thinking of Abu Ghraib (frat boy hijinks!) and Katrina (why all those po' folks are better off because of the flood! just like Ma Bush said!).

Would it be a better place if there were no conservatives (today's coinage) like Woz, no Republicans like Monte, no libertarians like me in this forum?

I expect your answer to be "no" because you'd be bored if all your political target exited, leaving only Goody, but "yes" for some people.

[walto]

I don't know if it's a libertarian or a conservative line, but the theory that any legislation that is long and complicated must be bad, is silly.

When William Weld was governor of Mass., he did what he called a "regulation review" project. Did a press conference in which he stood next to the Code of Mass. Regs. and showed how tall they were when piled on top of each other. Then he made all the executive agencies eliminate as many regs as they could, giving awards for numbers of pages eliminated. The theory, natch, was that regulation is by nature red tape and bad, hindering the free market, diminishing freedom, etc.

Of course, the reality was that many of the regs he eliminated were clarifications of statutes and were promulgated to eliminate what had sometimes been decades of court fights, complaints to agencies, needs for (ad hoc) administrative rulings, etc. So the result of the reduced poundage of regs (many of which contained little more than definitions) was more confusion, more litigation, poorly operating markets, unclarity among regulatees as to what are acceptable practices, etc.

Less isn't always better.

So the health care bill kicking around Congress is 1800 pages. That's not (or at least may well not be) problem with it. Its problem as I see it is that they are 1800 namby-pamby pages.

[jesus marion joseph]

Originally Posted by Gordon B

I doubt that anybody has absorbed what's in the entire 2000+ page bill. It's likely that nobody has even read it. The bill should be short enough that the provisions that are pernicious carve outs to special interests are exposed for being that and expunged. You aren't curious who has gotten away with what? Health care is important enough that those voting on it should really know what's in the bill and the public should know as well. Pelosi pledged back in September to put the bill online for 72 hours (not very long), so that the public would have access to it but has now changed her mind about that.

So you don't think it's possible for a few congresspersons to donate a few of their staffers to read through sections of the bill and report on what it says in the matter of a week or so? Not that I think this will happen, mind you, but it's not as though 2,000 pages is an impossible read.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by jesus marion joseph

So you don't think it's possible for a few congresspersons to donate a few of their staffers to read through sections of the bill and report on what it says in the matter of a week or so? Not that I think this will happen, mind you, but it's not as though 2,000 pages is an impossible read.

It's not impossible, I grant you that.

I realize that long bills create extra work and billing for attorneys as questions arise about enforcement

Here's the bill.

I've only read the highlights so far. It's a libertarian's nightmare and I'm not just talking about the mandates, which Obama opposed once upon a time (during the 2008 campaign for the nomination).

The bill, if enacted will be a drag on employment and will also ensure that the percentage of employee compensation that comes from health care benefits will rise at the expense of salary benefits. In fact, small businesses will be motivated to keep a watchful eye on their payrolls as they approach the $500K threshold.

The bill will create several new government agencies and new offices to administer the bill. One of them is the "Office of Indian Men's Health."

An excerpt of the highlights, published by OpenCongress.

It creates a massive expansion of the Department of Heath and Human Services, which already runs Medicaid and Medicare. It assigns more than 1000 new responsibilities to the Secretary of Health and Human Services. This includes giving away hundreds of grants worth billions of dollars, and overseeing a budget increased by hundreds of billions of dollars to support literally thousands of new regulations, penalties, sanctions, moratoriums, audits, investigations, oversights, surveillance, approvals, lawsuits, negotiations, services, awards, scholarships, loans, contracts, rebates, reimbursements, compensations, exemptions, waivers, reforms, offices, committees, task forces, centers, programs, standards, requirements, measures, methods, priorities, goals, rules, policies, processes, protocols, guidelines, plans, studies, surveys, reports, publications, web sites, call centers, data centers, facilities, training, and jobs. Almost every page in the bill gives new powers to the secretary. A few highlights include pp. 31, 56, 63, 72, 77-78, 88-89, 105, 205, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 216, 217, 219, 220, 266, 281, 284, 293, 426, 450, 510, 560, etc.

[Gordon B]

Originally Posted by walto

I don't know if it's a libertarian or a conservative line, but the theory that any legislation that is long and complicated must be bad, is silly.

Why do you disagree that any legislation that is as long and complicated as HR 3962 could be more effective and achieve its purported goals better with fewer provisions?

Theory is the wrong word, but that aside, why do you think that conservatives and or libertarians favor shorter, more transparent and less comprehensive documents than liberals and or statists? You might be right, I just want to know why you think that. I would think that it is true for libertarians versus statists but not conservatives (in current coinage) versus liberals (or progressives if you favor that term).

BTW, it sounds like Weld's approach was more political than principled from your description of it.

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by tippy

The U.S. ranks 31st in life expectancy (tied with Kuwait and Chile), according to the latest World Health Organization figures. We rank 37th in infant mortality (partly because of many premature births) and 34th in maternal mortality. A child in the U.S. is 2.5 times as likely to die by age 5 as in Singapore or Sweden, and a U.S. woman is 11 times as likely to die in childbirth as a woman in Ireland.

Kristof doesn't even bother to mention the other important ranking: cost. It's not just that US healthcare sucks compared to the rest of the world; it sucks and it costs more.

Per capita health care spending (2007):

United States: $7290
Switzerland: $4417
France: $3601
United Kingdom: $2992
Average of OECD developed nations: $2964
Italy: $2686
Japan: $2581

[bluenoter]

The House vote on the health care bill is coming up very soon---mostly likely before midnight ET. Edit: The vote has begun.

Edit: The House health care bill passed with two votes to spare!

Edit: The House has just voted to adjourn, and live coverage from the House has ended.



  

[Ron Thorne]

Thanks, bluenoter.

And this linkup from someone, who until quite recently, was on a dial-up modem.

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by Ron Thorne

Thanks, bluenoter.

And this linkup from someone, who until quite recently, was on a dial-up modem.

Hey, I could embed videos before, too; I just couldn't watch them. Thanks, buddy.

Edit: The House vote on passage of the health care bill has begun.

Edit: The House health care bill passed with two votes to spare!